Episode 7: Traver Boehm – Transcript

May 3, 2021


Clint Murphy, Traver Boehm

Clint Murphy  00:03

Welcome to the pursuit of learning podcast. I’m your host, Clint Murphy. My goal is for each of us to grow personally, professionally and financially, one conversation at a time. To do that we will have conversations with subject matter experts across a variety of modalities. My job as your host, will be to dig out those golden nuggets of wisdom that will facilitate our growth. Join me on this pursuit. Today on the pursuit of learning. I have Traver bone. Traver is the author of today I rise and man on civilized. He’s a two time TEDx speaker, men’s coach and the founder of the civilized men’s movement. This movement is radically redefining the way men around the globe experience their masculinity by uniquely blending both primal elements of manhood with massive doses of consciousness. Traver and I have a wide ranging conversation about all things masculinity. We talk about the founding of the man on civilized movement. We talk about Trevor’s journey through heartache, loss in grief, and how he came. On the other side. We talk about what it means to be a more than the downsides for society. repressed. We also talked about nice guys and girls, and how to kill it. I had a blast talking to Trevor and learned a lot. Enjoy the conversation. Traver Welcome to the pursuit of learning. I want to start our conversation by taking you back before the uncivilized man movement. I’d like to start with multiple things that happened to you in 2015. And that how that started you on this journey? Can you talk to our listeners about what you went through?

Traver Boehm  02:17

Yes, I would be more than happy to even a step before that. I was like just kind of plugging along at life. Clint like I you know things I follow the standard track, I went to college, I got a job. I went to grad school, I decided to open a business. I fell in love. I got married, I was like, I was checking every box you could possibly check. And then my ex now ex wife will give you a little bit of foreshadowing. And I got pregnant for the first time. And unfortunately, that pregnancy didn’t see itself through and we miscarried. And that was the start of a cascade of events that drastically shifted my life. First, just to say, I didn’t realize that a miscarriage would affect me. I was your standard American athlete business dude. Right? If I didn’t feel pain, I didn’t have pain. If I had issues, I drag them away. I got high like just your norm. I was like, your standard American human who is like, yeah, everything’s great. And this is this was the actually the better tagline. I’m fine. If at any point, anybody asked me? How are things like, I’m fine, everything’s fine. And this was the first time that I wasn’t fine. But I didn’t know it. All of a sudden, my you know, couple drinks a couple times a week went really through the roof. Like I’m going to come home and smoke and join after work. That became I’m going to wake up at 6am and get high. Oh, I’m looking at a lot of porn. I am finding I’m exercising two or three times a day. I am coming up with new business ideas like literally anything to take me out of my body. And so in very rapid succession. miscarried. My now ex wife took that or what she told me is that that was actually a sign from the universe, that our marriage was supposed to end as well. And so I woke up on a Saturday morning and played with the dog and made her breakfast and asked her what she was doing for the day. And she said, I’m leaving in an hour. And she you know, she literally did just that packed a bag and I didn’t see her again for some time. And that was poof. That’s how fast things were going. At that point I kind of realized I’m not quite okay. Like I can’t get away with saying I’m fine. So I spent the night in my business partners house that night because I just didn’t want to be in my house. And the very next morning over breakfast again, he said, You know, it seems like your life’s kind of falling apart. We should probably just go clean slate. I don’t really think you should stay in this business either. Let me buy you out and move you out. And let me take this over. And it there’s obviously more to the story than this. But those were the three big pieces that happened like, boom, boom, boom, those were the dominoes that now all of a sudden, I’m not within a fucking country mile of being fine. And I recognize, for the first time probably in 40 years, I’m not okay. And this started a process of inspiration of learning of therapy have a deep dive of falling. You know, landing on rock bottom is unique. It’s enlightening. It’s as enlightening as it is awful. But there’s so much potential there, right? So literally, I went, Okay, I’m not going to survive this, I will literally not. I can. I know myself, I have booze in the house, I have guns in the house, like, I’m not going to live through this experience. So I have a couple choices here. I immediately quit drinking that day, quit smoking pot quit all of it. Was like, You know what, I don’t know if I’m going to do this forever. But for the foreseeable future, this shit isn’t going to help me at all. And once a therapy, started going to men’s groups, dove into workshops really started to answer the question. Who the hell am I right here? I am about to turn 40. This was like a week before my 40th birthday. Okay, this is the midpoint of my life. I don’t know who I am. And I did. Here’s the even more important question for for later work. Who am I as a man, and these were things put that just weren’t in my consciousness, like, you know, I didn’t get pulled out of a college course. And they were like, Hey, this is where you figure out who you are. Or you know, you’re 25 years old, you really should know who you are, as a man before you apply to this job. It was like I was in the system. And so this started, so much inquiry, and so much work. And so much looking at my own shit. And looking at past trauma, looking at my family of origin, looking at my how I express myself, how I stuffed my expression, my relationship to pain, my relationship to intimacy, my fear of intimacy, challenges, my parents challenges with my upbringing, trauma from being bullied, like, you name it, I had to finally go, Okay, this is so big, that it’s unavoidable. So let me dedicate some time to actually diving into it. And it was the hardest fucking thing I’ve ever done. And yet, in hindsight, the single best thing that I’ve ever done,

Clint Murphy  07:25

and part of what you did coming out of that was you wrote a book for other men and women who are going through what you yourself went through. So for those out there, Today, I rise, how to use the pain of a breakup to reclaim your life. Effectively, this is the roadmap you took to get to the other side. And one of the things you say your message in it is it will be okay. When you get to the other side. Getting to the other side, though, that’s the journey, can we unpack a bit of what your journey looked like to get to the other side? Because very early on, you went with the one year to live project, and there’s a lot of things you did in that one year? Sure, really, I think start lay the groundwork for who you would become

Traver Boehm  08:15

100%, I was so fortunate at the time to have whatever you want to call it, of divine inspiration of knowing of a download, or whatever it was, that was this voice so early on in the process that said, hang on, hang on. Because there is another side, you can’t see that other side, you actually don’t even believe there’s another side. But trust that there is then if you do the work and you do this, right, the other side will actually be better than what you have now or what you’re grasping and clawing to get back. And so that was the faith piece. And so yeah, I designed this year, where suddenly like, I’m not having a kid. I’m not married. And the deal I worked out with my business partner was I would have a paycheck for the next two years. That’s how he would buy me out. So that’s a lot of open space. And I get that that’s most people don’t get that open space. And so what I didn’t want to do was waste it. Like I had so much advice at the time, as I’m sure you can imagine people were like start another business, start dating, go get remarried, like this is dumb. You can you can solve all of your problems in two months. You just need a little bit of action. But I had this feeling that this was a once in a lifetime opportunity. And I was actually hoping it’s a once in a lifetime opportunity. When else would I have had all of my social ties cut, potentially When else do I have complete freedom to roam to literally do whatever I wanted, and still have the support financially still have the support of friends and family. So it’s a long story, but to make it short, I asked the question right I saw a flyer outside  a Zen center that said the year to live program. Oh, that’s really curious what is this. And it was based off of stuff in the book a year to live. And it was for people who had terminal illness. And so it’s a 12 month meditation practice, or 12 month meditation process to prepare them for death. And I looked into it, I went, Wow, that’s really curious. I feel like I’m dying. I feel like I’m dying every moment of every day. It’s let’s just be honest about this was not fun. But what if I did this instead of when I was 82? Or 80? Whenever I was going to actually pass? What if I did it here at the midpoint? What if I went back and I closed all the loops that I needed to close from my past? I apologize to people, I asked for forgiveness. I told people, I love them. I went on some adventures like what if what if really, I thought I had a year to live like truly not the, you know, the standard, like, Oh, I’d go to Thailand, and I’d bang a bunch of hookers and I get great surf and everybody’s kind of standard answer. It’s like, Yeah, but what would you really do? And so I designed this year, that I hoped would do two things. One would allow me to heal as much as I could, from my past and from this rapid succession of traumas of like big traumas. And how could I prepare myself so that the next 40 years of my life would be radically different than the first 40. So I had to do all of these things that were different than I’d done in the past. So I volunteered in hospice, and I worked with people who were dying. I apologized to an ex girlfriend, like fully, like sat down across the table, have lunch and like, I was a fucking dick. I’m so sorry. If you can see it in your heart, please forgive me. And all of these things, closed loops, right? Yes, I locked myself in a pitch black room for a month, I put myself through survival school, because that’s what I’d always wanted to do. Kind of like Outward Bound Huck Finn, as a kid, I went and did some leadership training, I did some men’s work training. And I wandered, I did some just, like, let’s wander the earth. And it really did begin to inform what you said, like talking about the book was how do I take these lessons? Because I get it. People who are getting divorced, most people have kids, or they they can’t just like wander for a year, or they may not even want to. But how do I instill the lessons like you don’t have to sit in a pitch black room for a month to learn what I learned, if I can articulate it and explain it in a way that you get the gem without having to go through the process. And so I did that whole year. And at the end of it truly, if you’re the dead on its truth, I was depressed. Because for a year, I had a process for a year I had structure for a year, I knew what I was doing. If you asked me on January 5, where will you be October 11, I could tell you because I had a calendar in front of me, that gave me stuff to look forward to. But now it was back to reality. Now it was back to Okay, what the hell do we do now? this adventure is over. And I was very fortunate at the time to be living in someone’s house where I didn’t have to pay rent. So I didn’t really have I didn’t have this survival need to go out and just make a quick decision of what to do. And my good friend Drew, he realized that like you’re not doing that was like two weeks of me lying around. He’s like, you got to do something. Right? It’s good to have good friends. And I was like, okay, but I don’t know what to do. Because what if you wrote a book? What if you actually wrote 60 individual letters to the you who woke up January 15, and found out that your wife was leaving an hour later? What did you need to hear that you didn’t hear? I know what I think I can do that. Then for the next six weeks, I pumped out 90 individual letters. And I wanted it to be he’s literally it was the book I needed to read that day. And so it was a mix of the stories in these lessons and the, you know, the hero’s journey of coming back to society transformed. And here you get to share the gems. And it felt so good to be of service to say, Oh, well, my pain, this thing that the most horrible thing that I could imagine never surviving. One, I think I’ve survived it. And two, now if I share it with other people, it’s going to make their journey so much easier. There’s so much clearer, so much different. Because what I was talking about in that book was how do you use that pain? Not how do you ignore it? Not how do you bypass it? Not how do you survive it? But like I took a little bit of my old cage fighting mentality. It was like, You know what, what if I throw some fucking elbows with this pain? What if I choke the shit out of it? What if I like, get aggressive with it? How can I alchemize it and use it? And the reaction I got from the book was mind bending. Because people will literally say no one’s ever told me this. No one’s told me. I can use my pain. No one’s talked to me the way you’re talking to me. And this is when the ball dropped, that started to be more men than women. And if you write if you’ve ever been you’re in the if you’re in the social media space, or the self development space in the spiritual space

Clint Murphy  15:13

predominantly women,


predominantly women, and who reaches out predominantly women, that’s who comments on posts, predominantly women who dm you, predominantly women. And so suddenly, the that’s what I’m used to. But then the numbers switch, and it’s like, wow, five men reached out one woman, something’s different here.

Clint Murphy  15:34

I know, you read a lot of books on men’s work. I’m wondering if you may have read under Saturn shadow,

Traver Boehm  15:39

I don’t believe I have no

Clint Murphy  15:41

One of the things he talks about in there. He talks about certain rules for men. And one of them is men suffer in silence. And so in general, we don’t reach out. We don’t call another man to say, hey, how did you do what you did? There’s a ton to unpack in what you just said. You talked a fair amount. Well, so we’re gonna come back to a fair amount of it. Okay. One of the earlier things you did was the hospice. Yeah. And one of the patients you worked with Ernest told you that you could never outrun the pain. Yeah. What did that mean to you at the time? And what did it bring up? And how did you address it?

Traver Boehm  16:25

It was so impactful. Clint, it was just so impactful. Because when I first met Ernest, I need to paint this picture, that he was in a wheelchair as a guy in his in his late 80s, or late 70s. But he had cirrhosis of the liver, he had cancer, he had emphysema. He was a lifetime drinker and a lifetime smoker. He was literally curled up in a ball. He was I thought he was gonna die within days when I met him, right, like one of the very first things I had to do, which taught me about hospice was I watched him try to light a cigarette like six times, and I am as anti smoking as a human can get. I’m old enough to have flown on airplanes when people could smoke. And I lived in Japan as a kid. So I had to fucking fly back and forth every summer and just sit there for like, 18 hours while people smoked in my face. But I remember picking the cigarette off the ground, putting it in my own mouth, lighting it, and then handing it to him and going, this isn’t about me. So imagine this man who’s who’s literally what feels like at the time, he actually came out of that when we started hanging out and lived for about another year, it looked like him felt like he was so broken. So to have him have this moment of clarity and say those words, they’ve just pierced my heart. And really, at the time, I was running, right, I was running, I didn’t stay in Santa Barbara, I didn’t stay around my business, I didn’t stay where I could run into my ex wife, I didn’t stay in California, I literally left the country to get away from all of that experience. And so what he was telling me was, you can still go, you can still move, you can still physically leave yourself, but you the pain will follow you, it will follow you to the ends of the earth, it will follow you till the end of time. So at some point, or at multiple points, you’re going to have to stop and sit down and let it take you over. And that was something no one had ever told me ever. I just and maybe it’s in books, the books that I wasn’t reading, but but to have it so poignantly there from a man. And then he the follow up sentence was he pointed to himself and said, This is what happens when you do. And I went, Wow. Oh, fuck, right. Like, I just got chills, man, like,

Clint Murphy  18:45

I smoke. I drank, I was doing that all because I was running away from the pain. I wasn’t willing to sit with it.

Traver Boehm  18:53

Right. And here I am literally late 70s with a brother who’s healthy with with, you know, kids who are healthy dying. And so it’s just not to me, like it rocked me to a core that it changed me that I went, Okay, I need to learn. I don’t have the skill. No one’s taught me this. I have to learn how to alchemize and sit with pain. I have to learn how to have pain in my life, without a joint, a beer, horn, exercise, work, whatever, whatever it was, that I was using to numb it. And so it was truly one of the most impactful conversations I’ve ever had in my life.

Clint Murphy  19:32

And four things that you started to work with. During those dark times. Were journaling, meditation, movement, and sleep. So I’m curious. I’m curious. Well, I’m curious on all of them that especially sleep are those four things that are still very important to you today?

Traver Boehm  19:52

100% not literally 100% I even you know at the time, I think I’d started like a Twitter handle. Which I don’t have any more, which was like move well eat well be well. And the be well was journal and sleep. And it was like, if you don’t have these foundational basics as a human living in the society that we live in, you’re not going to make it. This is a challenging culture that we live in no matter what in the West, right, you’re going to be bombarded with media, you’re going to have shitty food, you’re going to be stresses is like a selling point. It’s, it’s not set up for holistic living, you’ll be isolated. And this was pre COVID. And so as a human this is these are the things that these are the tools that you need to have these and I was, you know, a little bit more aggressive, like, these are the weapons you need to have in your arsenal, something happens today that upsets you, you get triggered by something, you got to know how to write that out the next morning or talk about it into a journal, especially meditation. I was doing it before that had experience with it, but not to the extent where I went, Okay, this is saving my life. This is fucking important. Then it became an enlightenment tool or whatever we want to call it something a practice that I still have today that informs my creativity and informs my writing and informs a lot of higher level experiences. But at the time, it was a life jacket as a you don’t want to drown do this every morning movement. I’ve been everything from a you know collegiate to a professional athlete. And to this I literally before this was on a jujitsu mat for an hour before driving home. It’s where humans were meant to move. Look at the world that challenge people don’t move very often.

Clint Murphy  21:38

So movement to you doesn’t have to be one thing. There’s multiple paradigms for movement 100%.

Traver Boehm  21:44

Okay, human animal is designed to have it’s designed to move our bodies were designed to move our bodies look at most health issues in the West, like the top five health issues in the West can be cured with a lot of movement, and a lot of vegetables.

Clint Murphy  22:02

Eat less bad food, go for a long walk and do some yoga. And you’ll care a lot of what humanity has wrong with. And in fairness, it probably would also help a lot with COVID. for the amount of people that are having problems with it tend to be people who are unhealthy have pre existing conditions. And if they were eating more nutritious food, exercising regularly, likely less issues with it. And maybe we wouldn’t all be locked up as long as we are

Traver Boehm  22:35


Clint Murphy  22:36

That’s a whole other whole other can of worms, right

Traver Boehm  22:39

and it’s not a popular can of worms. Yeah, and then sleep. To me, there’s just still nothing more important than that is the root of health. And I still have had, I was a challenge sleeper prior in my previous life, and sometimes still in the running of international business and having a social media following and having to deal with humans and having a startup business and a partner and life. But I know when I get a good night’s sleep, everything else falls into place when I don’t, everything else is challenged. And so sleep at that period became really, really important because I viewed it again, as a weapon in my arsenal, and a survival tool.

Clint Murphy  23:21

What does good sleep look like to you?

Traver Boehm  23:23

To me, it’s just the number of hours that your body needs. I don’t want to be too vague. It varies from person to person. But to me, then it’s the practice of I’m not looking at any media past 10pm. Right, that’s my cutoff time. And I’m going to sleep in a pitch black room with with with dark curtain with with a blackout curtains. If I’m somewhere that’s noisy, I’m going to have earplugs, right? I’m going to let my body get up when it wants to get up. And if possible, I’m going to set my life up so that my body gets to get up when it wants to get up. Which unfortunately, my body’s still it’s like it’s 530, bro, let’s get up. Even though I don’t have anything on my calendar until 10am. But yet, I haven’t woken up to an alarm unless I’m catching a flight in years. And that space. I know that’s a we can call it a privilege. Or we can say this is how I designed my life. Right? I could be taking 6am calls. I don’t. I used to teach at 6am I used to have jobs that guy had to be there at 6am. So really, it’s looking at when does your body wants to sleep? Right? Again, mine fluctuates between like five and six hours. So it’s not ours. It’s quality for quality. Its quality, and it was it was gonna say I was just in saloon for a weekend. And on the very first night, I went to bed at 10pm I didn’t get out. I didn’t wake up until 10am 12 straight hours and just went Hey, this is what my body needs right now. Obviously it needs it. So most of us, we fight with sleep we try to keep ourselves up as late as possible. But Looking at media, and then wake up at a time that the minimum amount before so we can rush out the door when we used to have to rush out the door, or have no practice in the morning, no morning time, no ritual, no, no transition from unconscious sleep to conscious day. It’s just like wake, brush your teeth in the shower, shove a fucking bagel in your mouth, drive to work, and then start to start your day. So it’s just for people listening this like just think about your sleep. Think about it. It is a weapon in your arsenal.

Clint Murphy  25:34

So I’m going to take you on a different angle. Now. There’s, you’ve read the book, How to Be a man. And three months later, you were in a yurt with Robert masters. I’m actually in a training with him this week. So morning session, you and I are recording and then I go back on. So

Traver Boehm  25:50

I love it  I’d love it. Great man.

Clint Murphy  25:54

Yeah. And that’s maybe where we’re going? Because my question for you is what is about it? Is it about his writing? In teachings that resonates with you so much? And how has that informed how you work with your clients and what you do with the uncivilized movement?

Traver Boehm  26:11

That book was my starter kit to men’s work, it hit me so hard. Because Robert was so unapologetic, and clear about having a relationship with both your heart and your guts, right? So he was the first person that I went, Wow, you’re significantly older than me. So I’m not impressed with your physicality, right? He’s in his 70s, or late 70s. He had, he’s had some health issues, where I came from the athletic world, it was like, you’re bigger than and stronger than me. I respect you. with him. When I met him, I just want your clarity is like nothing I’ve ever experienced the clarity of your words, the penetrative nature of your words, the undeniable nature of your words, how you’re talking about men in a way I’ve never heard before, I was raised by an attorney, I want to find a hole in this so that I can argue against it. And I can’t find one because it’s that pure. And I’m not saying that he isn’t, he doesn’t have challenges, that he hasn’t had a challenge pass and whatever. But when I’ve been in a room with him, he matches his writing. That’s why it was so impactful. It’s like Robert, the author and Robert the man are the same guy. And I’ve been in a room with so and so the author and so and so the person and they’re, they ain’t the same person. That’s right. There’s clearly a disconnect. So I mean, that book, clan, it just, it was like, Where’s this been? You know, I had this question, Who am I as a man and Where the hell is this been? And maybe it was around and I just didn’t know it. But that thing to this day, I still read it. And like, I read all the parts that I have highlighted, which is essentially the entire damn book.

Clint Murphy  27:57

Yeah, he’s, I have it up on up on the shelf beside yours, actually. And he, the way I describe him is he’s a surgeon with the work he does. I did an all men’s group with him in December, now I’m doing professional training with him. And it’s a co Ed group. And he’s the same way with men as he is with women. And you’ve been there we all start our share. And then he starts asking the question, and whoever it is, is crying within minutes and right back to that childhood wounding and it’s just beautiful, like he but he’s so compassionate and caring and surgical and the way he he does it, there’s so much to learn, right? Beautiful.

Traver Boehm  28:40

It’s such a brilliant process of like, slowly walking someone to the point they don’t want to go, holding them there until they’ve gotten what they’ve needed, and then gently guiding them back out. So they’re okay. That to me is a level of mastery that speaks to the years and decades of work that he’s done. And the 1000s upon 1000s upon 1000s of hours of people he’s worked with,

Clint Murphy  29:04

agreed. So as we start to get to the end of today, I rise, I started to get a little sense that man uncivilised was coming in, I’ll read two quotes that stick out to me and see if we can unpack those and whether that was the start of of a bit of that journey. So one of the first things you said was, how you start your morning is how you live your day and how you start your Monday is how you live your week. The other one was actions Trump all and when done actions don’t require any words to validate them.

Traver Boehm  29:40

I don’t believe uncivilized, you know, it might have been in the background, but at the time, I still didn’t think I was going to be working with men. That was me tapping back into really just an athletic point of view or a primal point of view. of if you want something go build it if you’re not getting the results you want. Come back to the source come back to the root, right? Then with actions, if your actions come from your heart, and your actions come from your gut, and they are pure, they literally, you said it, they don’t need words. And there’s really no space for words. Again, it’s it’s this, it’s hard to actually physically describe. But I remember doing jujitsu with a guy, a black belt, who’d been a black belt for years, who was a savant, like he was a freak at this. And then jujitsu, you start, you like, clap, tap hands. And then you know, someone makes a move. And it’s like a chess match from there. And I remember sitting across from him, or, you know, getting ready to make my moves. And every time I fought about making the move, I felt like, well, that’s not going to work. So after just sitting there kind of staring at him for 30 seconds, I was like, I don’t know what to do. Because your defense is so pure, that I can’t find an opening in here. And when your actions are that pure, there’s nothing to defend. They’re so clear. They’re so penetrative. They’re so powerful, they’re so again, clear, I think, is the best word or precise that there’s nothing else to say, right? It’s oftentimes it’s very simple to just say, like, I have nothing else to say about that. And so it might have been the start of like the start of the start of the start, you know, but I was still thinking, who out there is struggling, and how do I help you? And how was I struggling? And I can tell you, I knew days, whole days, whereas like, if I’m up at six, and I’m writing, or I go to the gym, or I’m at the beach doing doing a run and then I come home, my whole day falls in line. If I’m if it’s 9:32am, and I haven’t gotten off the couch, that day is fucked. I’m done. It’s I can just write off. And in going through a crisis. I also found that there were weeks, like if I started my Monday off, okay, I wrote Monday through Friday. If on Monday, I was like, I don’t know, I don’t feel it today. Then. We were we were looking at next Monday before anything else got started?

Clint Murphy  32:06

Yeah, before you got to group and you shared and you said, but this week’s gonna be different. Yeah. I never hear that one. So one of the things you say about yourself, and this ties to what you’re saying right now is that you’re an all in kind of a guy, and that half measures don’t interest you. How does that manifest in your daily life? I think we just heard some of it right there.

Traver Boehm  32:30

Yeah, I wrote today, I rise in about five weeks, just nonstop. I woke up, I went to the bathroom, I either went to the gym, or I sat down and started writing. I wrote man on civilised in about six weeks. And it was the exact same process. I locked myself in a house when I wrote man on civilize. I don’t know if I if I’ve shared this story with or if you’ve heard this story, I finished it. And then I flew to New York to be with just to visit my buddy. And we were walking down the street together. And I actually stopped him. And I said, I think I need to go to a hospital. And he’s like, Why? What’s going on? I was like, something’s wrong with my head. I am fucked up in the head. And I have no history of mental illness. I have no history of other than, you know, going through divorce. I have nothing traumatic mind. You, I got hit in the head a lot is in my 20s as a fighter, but I said something’s not right. And I can’t shake it. Okay, when was the last time you talked to someone other than me? It was like, six, seven weeks ago? Is it what was the last time you went to the gym? And I was like, six, seven weeks ago was the last time you ate food that you cook yourself that wasn’t like ordered or wasn’t like shit. I was like, six, seven weeks ago. Because they come with me. And we went to a gym. We just worked out and he got me some food. And we hung out and I was like, I need to go to hospital. It’s weird. I cured myself, man. Like, I’m a genius. But it was intense.

Clint Murphy  33:55

You had locked yourself up to write 100% you went full lockdown.

Traver Boehm  33:59

Like if you want the truth of it, I was pissing in Gatorade bottles. Like I wouldn’t even get up from my seat to stop typing. It was like that, because it was felt like it was coming through me. And I didn’t want to stop that process. I can tell when writing is coming. I’ll start to get emotional two or three days in advance and be like what’s going Oh, shit. Words are coming. Okay, I need to clear Monday. Then I’ll sit here and I’ll write for eight hours straight. And I think I had when this book when it started coming. I knew I was fucked. Like I knew I was in. I knew I was going to be a thing. I knew it was this massive thing coming through me. So yeah, all in man. I don’t know how else to live. It’s I think if you want something, build it go after it. Do it. Like literally, we don’t have that much time here. That that sits with me. I watched guys die in hospice. I watched them in wheelchairs. I watched them in beds, having to push a button, so someone could come and help them take a shit. I know that’s out there for me. I know it’s there. I also remember what it was like to be 15 years ago. Wow. 30 years have passed since then, okay, I want to do something impactful on this planet. I need to be engaged. I need to set my life up to allow for full engagement. And it doesn’t mean that brother, I don’t want you to think that like, I have a Netflix account. I have a girlfriend. Like I do fun shit. Like I you know, it’s not, I’m not a monk, right? It’s I go for walks, I go for hikes. I love life. But when it comes time to go, okay, it’s game time. It’s fight time, it’s time to actually engage. I want full engagement

Clint Murphy  35:45

yen. And I want to take people to the start of man on civilized because that is a great story. And it shows how even great things come from humble beginnings. So when you first decided, wait a second, I want to work with fucking men. You put up a flyer, and you were like, it’s Game on. And you had one man show up. And he just he just didn’t want to eat McDonald’s. So why don’t why don’t you take us through how how that guy who didn’t want to eat McDonald’s but wanted his coffee became the uncivilized movement.

Traver Boehm  36:21

Sure. I had moved out of my buddy’s house, he was letting me live for free. And I was like, Okay, I actually need to start paying rent, in order to get the machine going like to plug back into society. So I moved into an apartment in Brooklyn with another guy who I’d spoken with a TED a fitness guy named Adam Cobb. And I was a just had some like Inklings about men stuff just was like, hey, the business plan, Clint was to do the year to live project to take people on a year long journey to have like a year long mastermind where I would walk people through a 12 month process. I actually remember right when I got to New York, I hired my first business coach. And he said, okay, you have to put a video on our Facebook page, talking about what you want to do with yourself. And I was like a, b, and c. And then if there’s any time left over, I want to work with men. So this was number four on the list. It was still not as a gal. These guys are calling me I’m having these conversations. But like, this isn’t my This isn’t my jam. So gonna throw them and you’re like, you know what, fuck it. Let’s just see what happens here on this building. We have this great event space downstairs. I put fliers up, as you said, I put it on meetup. I was on like, every possible social outlet telling people like I’m throwing a men’s group. Let’s get 50 guys together. Let’s have this big powwow. And like prep for it, as you said, like walked downstairs, open the door and there’s one dude, one dude, God bless him. He’s now I think he’s famous now because I’ve told this story so many times. And I dumped on I didn’t even I don’t think I asked him a question. I just was like, Hi, I’m Trevor. And then boom, boom, boom, boom, like 45 minutes of Robert masters Robert Bly, masculine, feminine way of the superior man polarity be the mountain blah, blah, blah. And I think when I took my first breath, I was like, Oh, hold on. I followed you for a couple years on social media from when you were in the fitness world. I really need to lose 20 pounds. That’s why I’m here. And I went Fuck, okay, okay, I can do this. Like this is this is my bread and butter for years. I can do this. I was like, tell me about your life is like, Well, here’s my problem. I can’t not eat McDonald’s burritos. Move without breakfast burritos. Okay, well, this is that like, you’re ready for the seven second fix. You ready for this? Like, I have going to take four years of Chinese medicine school. 20 years of athletics. I’m going to cram it all into one sentence. Never fucking walk into McDonald’s again. And I was like, blah, blah, like waiting for like the heavens to open and for the light bulb above his head to go off. And he goes, I can’t. I just can’t do that. I was like, why can’t you do that? Like, what are you talking about? you’re forced to go to McDonald’s. Because they have the best coffee. And my heart broke for a moment. It was like I just I have so much experience helping people. And I’m literally up against a French press, like a French press which this is the solve your problem. And you’re saying you can’t and so we finished the meeting. I gave him a hug actually have a photo of us together. And I went upstairs and I was telling Adams like, it was like, bro, this fucking guy just kicked him thought he can’t not go to McDonald’s. And when we transition we like hung out for the rest of the night. I think we actually as I’ve shared like we talked about some stuff with our dads. We talked about some early Relationships shit that Ed was still kind of messing with both of us separately, like things just in our passive relationships with women. And we hung out for till like 11 o’clock, and then went to bed. And the next morning, Adam was like, hey, love to get up early and workout. So I think he like woke me up, like banging on my door at like 5am. It was like 5am Club, we’re going downstairs and workout. Like, Oh, god, it’s like throwing shorts and a T shirt, and got in the kitchen. And he’s making a shake for himself and goes, Hey, when was the last time you ate McDonald’s, and I don’t eat that. Like, I just don’t eat fast food. And so I had to think about it for a minute. And I was like, God, maybe in college, you know, on like a water polo road trip or something. And I’m like, man, I don’t eat that shit. That’s civilian food. And he literally took his phone out and started recording me five in the morning, and have like one eye open? Because what do you mean civilian food? Like, what is it? What is this idea? What do you mean civilian? So take a look at our apartment. Right? There’s no television, there’s no alcohol in the thing in the apartment. There’s no drugs here. We didn’t go out last night and party. It’s 5am. And we’re getting ready to go. Like throw ourselves down a flight of stairs working out, we’re gonna kick the shit out of ourselves. We spent last night talking about stuff deep to both of us, our relationship to our fathers, our relationship to women, our relationship things that have happened. And in our, you know, breakups. Like we connected on a very deep level. This is not how civilians live. And I don’t want to be one. And the moment is like, okay, cool, but it’s far away like dragons thing. And we went downstairs and it was while I was working out that that word, Clint, it just like it wouldn’t leave my head of like civilized versus uncivilized, civilized for some civilized, civilized or some civilized and it hadn’t fully developed. Right, it was a year of teasing the word out. But it was I want both of these. I want a life where it’s 5am. And I’m fucking using my body and crushing it. And with my brother, and we are throwing down and we are making ourselves strong. We are unapologetic about that. And, and we have the ability at any moment to drop into deep intimacy. And I’m not in a romantic relationship with Adam. Right? But the ability to connect and talk about real things to share real things. That’s when I went. So there’s this primal element, right? Like there’s primal fucking savagery. I need that as a man. And there’s this depth of consciousness that I also need. And I can’t pick one or the other. I refuse to pick one or the other. And what if men were presented with both in a single package? I just got chills again. And that’s that was the day right? I came upstairs. I put something on. So I called the coach. And I was like, Hey, I’m switching the order. I’m going to work with men. I have this idea. I say, if you want to have the uncivilized, man, no, nope. I want a man uncivilized. Okay, run with it. I threw it on social media that day, just on Instagram with my, like, 1000 followers at the time. I was like, Hey, I have an idea. What if we looked at what if men looked at their lives differently? Then we weren’t asked to pick left or right. We weren’t asked to pick primal or divine. We weren’t asked to be a Navy SEAL or a vegan feminist poet. Like what if we got to have both? And my life from that moment on was radically different? Because the reaction was, Holy fuck, where’s this been? Holy fuck. I’ve never heard anybody say this before. Holy fuck. I’ve searched my whole life as a man for something. But I’ve always been told it has to be a or b. And so the reaction let me know I was on to something. But in my own body, Clint, for the very first time, as opposed to being the weirdo cage fighter at acupuncture school. And the weirdo acupuncturist in training. When I was fighting, I got to be both

Clint Murphy  44:11

the first time you were whole.

Traver Boehm  44:13

the first time I was whole,

Clint Murphy  44:15

too much of life. It people like to break things down to binary choices. It’s a one or zero. Why can’t it be a one and a zero? Right? And so we’re going to spend the rest of our time diving into the book. And early on. One of the things you talk about is in the past, we had the Marlboro Man and he definitely had some issues. But over time, that evolved into the what you describe as the overly sensitive New Age guy. And a description I love that that you have is it’s being a roomful of dogs, pretending to be cats. And what you say is it is as dangerous and it’s ABS as its Marlboro predecessor, all heart and denies that balls exist, can we unpack for the listener the evolution of manhood, say that in quotation marks and what you see there and then we’re going to dive into what you talked about because those are both either or paradigms in what you’re trying to go to is an either and not an either or. Okay, yeah.

Traver Boehm  45:27

So let me preface I’m not a sociologist, and I’m not a historian. Yet what I see or what I had seen was if we take the 1950s Marlboro Man, for people who can’t grasp that idea, think about your classically the image of the Marlboro Man, the lone wolf, though like hat pulled down, not emotional, not connected, not in touch with his heart, afraid of being viewed as weak, anything feminine, is viewed as weak, anything emotional is viewed as weak. And the worst thing that man can be, is to be viewed as weak. So he’s very disconnected from his emotions from his heart, from women, from the feminine within himself, from the boy within himself from playfulness, from anything that in quotes will be viewed as weak. And if we’re talking history, and historians may skewer me on this, I think that was a lot of our fathers. That was a lot of our grandfathers. And then we have the 60s here in the US, we have, we have the hippie movement, we have feminism, which comes in and says, Hey, this isn’t okay anymore. The Marlboro Man doesn’t respect any of our boundaries, any of our consent, any of our any of who we are, the masculine world doesn’t accept who we are. And we think about the fuckery. That was allowed back then, in the workplace in society of the abuse that was allowed, like just it’s it was god awful. So we also have for very good reason, a number a generation, let’s just say, have a lot of a generation of men, who were also raised by women who were afraid of or hated men. So coming into the 80s, coming into the 90s, because their fathers, grandfathers or husbands were these Marlboro men. And they were trying to forge into society into feminism was opening doors, that those men were trying to kick closed. So then we have this generation that also, and I’m sure we can look at the access to economics. Like I remember my dad coming home most days at like five o’clock. But that stopped at some point, they started coming home at seven, then he was coming home at 10. Then it was like, Man, you work a lot. And he’s like, yep, this is what we need to do, to have the bigger house, the bigger cars, the private schools, the things. So he was essentially absent, through no fault of his own. But so were my friend’s dad’s, right, like they all worked in New York City and would take the train in at five o’clock in the morning, and would come back at nine o’clock at night. But they made the money they were the providers. So we also had a number of men, a vast number of men who were raised by women, only by women, and by women who most likely and I said if we’re afraid of men are hated men for good fucking reason. Because men were so traumatizing, that had traumatized them. And if it wasn’t that they were simply raised with the absence of a male figure. So there you have of overly feminized man, a man who’s actually been taught, men are bad, men are evil. Men are hurtful. masculinity is bad, being a man is bad, being a man is trouble. Right? And so that’s where we get the separation of the sensitive New Age guy. I’m teaching a class right now called kill the nice guy. And I asked each one of those guys, think of how old you were the first time it was implicitly, explicitly, covertly overtly, whatever you want to say, explain to you or shown to you that it’s not okay to be a man. And every single one of them could go back to early childhood, to my parents got divorced, and mom told me you know why this is happening? Because dad’s fucking asshole, right? Or it was like, Dad was an asshole. I watched dad beat up Mom, I watched my brother do etc. So this is and I know this is a vast oversimplification for people listening. But that’s how I feel we get to this place where we went, huh? We have a lot of guys who were raised by men who said weakness, bad weakness, weak, feminine, bad, heart, bad all balls. And then this other group of men who has heart good feminine good emotions, good masculine, Bad boys, bad, aggression, bad, anything male, bad, and they’re less sensitive up. Guys, and sure there’s this swath in the middle who didn’t get either or who had, you know, a different experience, but they’re not attracted to this work. They don’t need this work. But for a lot of us, it was one or the other, or they, they do need it, but they’re afraid to go to either direction.

Clint Murphy  50:20

So for example, you were for people who, as you talk about the softer side of things, or the feminine, or they look at you and say, oh, like who’s you are an MMA fighter? Right. So if you look at a lot of the people that had the background you had when you were doing that many of them probably would not want it wanted to have shown that side of themselves. So they, some of them might not have needed it, because they might have been in touch with their feminine with their artistic side, but they may or may have been afraid to show it. And what you’re trying to offer is a path that brings both together. So you can go to jujitsu, and then you can go to your art class, right? You can bring it all together,

Traver Boehm  51:07

you’re so many flavors of masculinity, right? We think that there’s this one singular thing like you this and you’re that and that’s in your masculine. Like, there’s so many ways for a man to express himself within the context of what I say of the primal and divine. And there’s so many ways to express himself, just acknowledging that he has both, that’s really the point is this. When you say yeah, I’ve got this side of myself that I can fuck some shit up if I need to. Now, I’m going to just pick some dramatically other directional things. And now I’m an artist, a poet and a ballet dancer, and, and or deeply. I’m a yogi, a conscious meditator, a feminist. I’m all of these things. Beautiful. As long as you don’t deny one side or the other. I’m cool with you. And you’re fitting into my paradigm of uncivilized. It’s when we when we shame the side of ourselves, that says, Oh, I can’t even imagine. I can’t acknowledge that I have that part of myself. I’m not primal. I just don’t have it. I disagree with that. Like cool, don’t eat for a week, see what happens. Right and then go hang out with some people who have food and they won’t give it to you. See if your primal your fucking primal. You have it in you. And two other men are saying, Oh, I’m not I have no emotions. I’m not conscious. That’s, that’s stupid. But cool. Let me ask you like, let me Robert masters you for four questions. asking your childhood and your pain. Oh, here’s a box of tissues. Let’s It’s okay, there you go.

Clint Murphy  52:39

Yeah, yeah, it’s never okay to cry except with your dog dies. It’s such a it’s such a strange world. So Traver, what I want to do because you’re offering a course right now. And I hope there are many more iterations of it, which is the kill the nice guy. It is one of the biggest problems that I see. Probably you see, a lot of us see in men’s work. Can you tell our listeners What a nice guy is? sure what some of the problems are with it. And some of the easiest ways for men to address the nice guy syndrome.

Traver Boehm  53:21

Yeah, and let’s, let’s put first up this is capital N and capital G. So this isn’t like, kill the nice person, right? Like kill the kind person. It is a it’s like a syndrome that Robert Glover was the first one to name it. The nice guy is in simple terms, a codependent male. It’s a guy who is looking to the outside, to make him feel okay with who he is in the world, how he exists in the world, and what he does in the world. So this is a guy who’s made a contract with the world that says, If I take care of everybody else, if I make sure that everybody else is okay, if I source my okayness from the feminine, most likely from women, then my life is going to be easy, successful and clear. Right? So we all know guys like this more comfortable with women than they are with men terrified of conflict. This is a man who will not may not even acknowledge that he has his own needs. I don’t have needs, I just need my need is to take care of everybody else’s needs. Right. So a lot of people listening especially women are like, Oh, these guys are the worst to date. It’s the guy who disagrees with you and agrees with you and agrees with you and agrees with you, but secretly despises you because he needs something from you. He can’t get from himself, because he doesn’t know how to create it and source it from himself. So he is the classic wolf in sheep’s clothing. Right. And for guys, listen to this. If you’re the guy that like helps her move, and like, listens to her while she complains about her boyfriend and like Gosh, she goes God I just I can’t believe that no one snatched you up yet. You’re so kind and so sweet. And you’re like, Yeah, I know. And you’re secretly hoping that someday she’ll just come to the realization that you’ve been the guy all along, and she’ll let you fucker. You’re the nice guy. And there is this insidiousness. Clint, there’s this, this manipulation underneath it. Right Robert talks about it. Glover talks about the idea of covert contract contracts.They’re just such a big deal for for those of you listening, it’s this secret deal. Like if I have this covert contract with my partner, then it’s here’s the contract. She doesn’t know this exists. By the way, this is why we call it cover. But if I mow the lawn, do the dishes and work an extra 20 hours this week, she’s gonna want to have sex with me now. She has no idea. So it’s Friday, I’ve done all the work. I’ve worked my extra hours, the lawn is mowed, the house is clean, the dishes are put away, and she comes home. She again she has no idea. She’s like, oh, man, you know, I’m gonna go watch a movie and put myself to bed. And I’m like, wait a minute. I’m supposed to be getting sex right now. Because I did the things that equal me earning sex. And she has no idea. And so maybe 15 minutes later, she comes back out. It’s like, Hey, you seem like you’re upset. Is there anything bothering you? Now I’m a nice guy. So I can’t have conflict. So I go, No, I’m fine. And I throw up some walls and I check out and I and then I get resentful. And then I tell myself, it’s okay, cuz you know, like, I can’t upset her. And I do accidentally like, you know what it was, I didn’t do enough shit. So now I’m gonna mow the lawn, like clean the house, do the dishes, do the work, Reese re roof the roof. Like, I’m thinking of some other random shit. And I’m gonna wait till next Friday, as opposed to actually go into my partner and say, Hey, you look amazing today. You know what I would love to do? I would love for us to throw on some candles and some Barry White. And we’re gonna make sweet baby love all night long. And I take the risk of her saying, Ah, you know what, I just I just don’t feel it right now. I’m sorry. like, Wow, that sounds amazing. Maybe Saturday night, but just not tonight. So the nice guy is terrified of taking a risk. Because here’s the juice about the nice guy. The worst thing in the world to a nice guy is fear of rejection. 100% fear of rejection because rejection leads to abandonment, and then to a nice guy, abandonment, not cognitively, but deeply leads to death and leads to being alone being kicked out of the tribe having to like freeze and starve and die in the woods. So it’s a deep rooted fear of abandonment, which gets triggered by rejection. So he never risks rejection. So he never asks for anything. And he lives as this chameleon, trying to make sure that everybody around him is happy all the time, which is exhausting, which also creates a ton of resentment in that man. So inside of him, he’s seething with rage. That’s why he’s so dangerous.

Clint Murphy  57:59

And I didn’t think to dive into these today. But given everything that’s happening, right, given what happened in Georgia, and I know you’ve talked about this, what happened in Georgia last week, what we saw happen where you live in the last couple of days. How much of this is tied to these men who they just don’t have the right outlet for what’s inside them. And they haven’t done the work to avoid these types of disasters.

Traver Boehm  58:34

You know, I just recorded a video on this that I’m going to post in a little while titled grief, rage, entitlement, and machine guns and like, to me that is the cocktail, the lack of even ability to honor and express grief. Like we don’t we’re not allowed to do that as men in this culture. We’re not allowed to be sad. Can’t be fucking What are you crying? Be a baby. Like we can’t do that socially. We’re not are not quitting like, Oh, your dog died. Oh my god, clear. Let me help you. But anything else is you said it’s like that’s not okay. So we have these guys that just are covered in grief that have so much deep grief. And since they’re not allowed to express it, what protects grief and sadness to me anger does, right? It’s a bit of a cliche, but like anger is sadness is body guard. And so when you stuffed down enough grief and you stuffed down enough sadness, and you build up enough anger, you create rage, and the rage is because of entitlement. I should be living a different life. The guy in Georgia, he said it clearly like I’m a porn addict. I’m a sex I should be getting more pussy. I should be having sex whenever I want it. I’m entitled to it, but I’m not getting it. I have to pay for it. grief, rage entitlement. Now we put a machine gun in this guy’s hand and we’ve got what we’ve got right now. Imagine if these guys I don’t know the whole story of Boulder yet it hasn’t really come out with Imagine if these guys had five men in their life who were like, Hey, you know what? You seem a little sad. Lately, like, and that’s okay. Like, talk to us what’s going on here? Oh, you’re sad about this? Oh, man, I’ve been sad too. Like, truly It’s okay. You seem angry? How do we work through this? Right? You seem entitled, what what about what about you feels like you’re owed something by the world and by women, and by the feminine, you’re not owed anything, then if you want something, go build it, create it. So I think it’s the root of so much of it, Clint. And unfortunately, like, I get a ton of kickback. Talking about this people like you’re missing the point. It’s all about guns like, Well, yeah, gun

Clint Murphy  1:00:47

guns, the tool that does it, but the gun is undeniable. They can have a knife and they could kill three people.

Traver Boehm  1:00:53

There are 100. And here in America, we love our guns with there are hundreds of millions of guns. So yes, we have an issue with guns. Yet all of those 100 millions of people aren’t going out shooting people. So there’s some other factor that we have to put in. And yet 99.99% of the time, it’s also a male. So you Okay, what about the male condition leads to this? And that’s where I think, yeah, I would venture to bet that both of those guys were nice, guys.

Clint Murphy  1:01:22

Yeah. And and the something you talked about the other day that I want to make sure we have time for because it was so timely that you talked about it. And then we have a second incident is you said that line, let others be safe for I walk among them. And I emailed that to myself to make sure that I gave us time to go over it today. Can you take the listeners through why you posted that video? And what all men should be thinking about as it relates to that?

Traver Boehm  1:01:59

Yeah, thank you for that. I just got chills again, I posted that video. Because I watch I spend a ton of time like a little bit removed watching the interactions. And I watched the all men hashtag compete with the not all men hashtag, I know it. Okay, you’re both missing the point here. This was after, I don’t know, I don’t know exactly how to pronounce her last name. But the woman Sarah, I think Schrader or something like that, in England, who was kidnapped and killed by a cop. And the hashtag that really did go around was she was just walking home. And so what unleashed all of this was how many women then responded on social media of this is what’s happened to me, just walking home. And it’s fucking atrocious. Right, as a human, it makes me insane. As a man, it just sends me into a fury. Because one, there’s two sides to this coin. One, it means the last opportunity of men to say everywhere I go, I have the opportunity to make sure people are safe simply by my presence. And that opens up all the work that you’re doing. That means I’ve done the deep work. I’ve cried on the pillow. I’ve looked at my relationship with my mommy. I’ve looked at my relationship with the girl in sixth grade, who told me I was ugly, and she wouldn’t go out with me. I looked at my relationship with a girl in high school who laughed at my dick. I’ve looked at how all like I’ve done this work. I’m safe, not just because I know how to benchpress and choke people. I’m safe because I’m safe inside. So when it requires men to do that work, but to you know why all of this came about Clint. This whole fucking thing came about because when before I wrote man UNcivilized it was the me to era. And I kept reading and reading and reading and reading and reading about the problem. And I never saw one thing about the solution. And so when I saw the not all men, all men arguing, I went, wait a minute, neither of you are saying what we should do. All I’m hearing is men need to do better. Men need to do different men need to stop this. Men need to speak up and Okay, I get the frustration I get that. We don’t know what to give men what to do. We don’t know how to solve this. And men, we get frustrated because they’re like, what do you want me to do about it? I’m not a rapist. I’m not going to kidnap someone this weekend and murder her. So I’m not part of the problem. And so then those men check out and so I said that sentence and wrote and shot that video to give men an alternative because I’m a fucking dude. And I know when I’m given like a task, that makes me feel good. I’ll do it. But if you yell at me to stop doing something I’m not doing. I’m just going to check out and so I wanted men to adopt the mantra. Let others be safer for I walk among them because it just changes the mindset. First, don’t be pardon, don’t do no damage. What’s the Hippocratic Oath? Right? Like, first do no harm. So if it’s just that, if you’re just walking the streets and you’re saying, okay, I let others be safer for a walk among them, okay? My role tonight is I’m just gonna do no harm. If every man just did that, we would have a massive shift in domestic violence, we’d have a massive shift and cultural violence and violence towards women, and violence towards men, because we beat the fuck out of each other, too. We shoot each other, we rape each other, we do all sorts of horrible shit to each other. But what if we actually took a step back and said, Okay, I’m going to walk differently. I’m just going to have a different mentality. And that good, then that spread? That became popular. Whoa, shit, right. And so I was on a call last night with a group of women and said, Imagine if the default, like when you walk down the street at night, and you saw three men walking towards you, what if we were at a place culturally where the default was, holy shit, if something goes wrong, those guys are on my side, those guys will help. Those guys will be part of the solution, no matter what goes wrong. And it was just mind numbing to watch them, some of them crying, right? Other than like, silently applauding of like, Oh, my God, my life would be so different. If that’s the default about men, as opposed to the current default is I need to cross the street. I need to I need to get away from them. Because they’re predators, right? They are the people doing the damage. So I’m want to talk about solutions, man, like, I want to talk about the root of issues. I want to solve problems while I’m here. not get caught up in the maelstrom of hashtag verse hashtag, you said this. So that means this will fuck you then. And then now we have, what have we solved? We’ve solved nothing. Right? So I’m not talking about guns, right? I’m not I know, it’s super unpopular to say this. It’s why I’m not talking about racism right now. Because it just feels like that doesn’t lead anywhere.

Clint Murphy  1:07:00

It just dehumanizes the other side is agonizing. Right? And then the battles over? It’s what could what can we both sides agree? are principally wrong ways to behave?

Traver Boehm  1:07:13

Exactly, exactly. And what can both sides then come together and go, Wait a minute, yes, you guys are willing to say that you’re going to Don a protect, and you’re really going to do it, you’re just you’re not going to run around like trying to save us all the time, every time something goes wrong. But you’re actually going to be part of the solution, we can trust you, we can start to trust you. That is the shift we need to see right now.

Clint Murphy  1:07:35

And I think a lot of your writing. And if men are living the way you write about in your book, a lot of those things will be addressed. So that brings me to one of the categorizations you have a number of categorizations whether it’s the five pillars, the 12 ethos, but you also have I think my favorite is fight fuck feed and feel. And other than a little alliteration. What what drove those four categories?


This was a true story. It was a conversation I had, when I was fighting, I would go to my jujitsu instructors, a guy named Chris Hodder, and he is one of the early early American Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belts in California. And he just turned his garage into a training center. And so we were just go there. And it was this massive gathering of high level people in California. And we just beat the fuck out of each other. And one day, I don’t remember what the conversation was about. But he kind of pointed to the group, and was like fighting, feeding and fucking Traver, this is what the male animal does. And at the time, you know, I’m like, late 20s, early 30s was like, Hey, thank you, Sensei, you are so wise. And then when I got into the men’s space, and went, Wow, that’s actually true. We need to have some semblance of understanding of how to protect ourselves, how to protect who we love, how to actually how to have sexuality, how to have desire, how to fuck into the world, how to feed ourselves, how to feed our hearts, how to feed our souls, but there was one that was missing. And I get it. He’s a jujitsu guy, right? It wasn’t like, there wasn’t two guys weren’t like crying in the corner was like, Oh, that’s beautiful. They’re expressing their emotions. That was the missing piece Clint feel

Clint Murphy  1:09:23

we have feelings feel.

Traver Boehm  1:09:24

And if you drop one of those, I feel like a guy has an issue. We need to have all four you need to have proficiency or understanding or a relationship with each one of those four words. And I will say the most important now, I would say is to feel right. 10 years ago, I’d say it’s the fight. You got to know how to fucking fight. You got to know how to protect yourself. You got to know how to like our burger. But now I really believe it’s how many men or we just live in a state of numb or hyper reactivity. It’s like number

Clint Murphy  1:09:58

we were talking about. That in in the session today, I mentioned I was watching comedians in cars getting coffee. And one of the Gerry’s lines was everything we do is just killing time. And I think with COVID with isolation, people have just the number of things people are doing to numb themselves are going up exponentially. And when we come out of this, I’m very worried that you may have posted something along these lines recently. I’m very worried what we’re going to see in the next six to 12 months with all of that repressed rage and numbness.

Traver Boehm  1:10:38

I think we’re going to see here in the US more shootings. I wasn’t surprised that it was one and then a week later another, like, okay, I don’t know, I have had this so pent up. I have no one to put it on. Oh, you’re gonna put me back in society. Okay. Okay, I’ll do it

Clint Murphy  1:10:54

in part of what drives that is, you know, you’ve been talking about it. And I’m looking at a line I have here on the sheet and it just read it’s resonating with what you’re saying. Men want to be badasses. Men want to be rich men want to fuck beautiful women, but civilized men don’t want to risk getting their asses handed to them in pursuit of those goals. Nor from what I’ve seen in my young life, I think we’re roughly the same age Traver is, do they want to do the work? Right? And you talk about, so we’re gonna unpack that one we’re getting near the end. But I want to tie that back to very early on in your book, because you described the uncivilized man. And there’s something some things in there that really resonate. He has his father’s work ethic, his mother’s heart, and his brother and sisters best interest. He is his brother’s keeper, his partner’s protector and his children’s Teacher, what I see there with that work ethic with that heart, and what I see there with what men want, but what they’re willing, willing or not willing to do, is that my imagination or in a lot of the work you’re doing. Are you seeing that there’s a gap between what people want and what they’re willing to do for it.

Traver Boehm  1:12:13

100%, it goes back to what I was talking about the video of entitlement. Now we can even look at covert contract of my covert contract with the universe is all I have to do is show up half assed, and I get a seven figure business, a model wife, and a six pack. Right and 4% body fat. And that’s it. I don’t have to do anything for it. And I think we’re at this point culturally, where God bless tech, but they kind of skewed our view of the overnight success, right? Like you have an idea that whoever has an idea for an app, two months later, you’re a billionaire. It’s like, okay, you really didn’t have to go through the years of grinding. Or we’ve seen just the polished presentation. We don’t see what happens in the background of successful people, or people that we admire. And so yes, I have a lot of men who come to me and it’s there. I understand it. It’s a frustration of Where’s mine. I’ve played the game. I did the things right. I’m nice. I’m nice to people. I’m not hurtful. I listen, I show up to all the meetings. I come on time to work. Where’s mine? Like? Where is this idolized life that I was shown in music videos on social media, in all these places? Where is it? How come I don’t have it? I see it.


I think that’s even more of the challenge right now, Clint is that it’s in our faces all day long. So it’s like we can almost reach through the phone and grasp it. Right, but it’s not really real. And we forget, like how many years it takes to build a business. We forget, get the sacrifices, right. Like when I first started this, I was renting a single room out of a guy’s basement for like a year and a half. Like that was not cool. That was not sexy. That was not like, Oh my God, look at you living the dream. I had like a twin bed. I had two pieces of furniture. And every cent I made went into I need a website, I need to have a hero photographer. I need a book editor. I need someone that I need to spend $7,000 to buy the first 500 copies of this book before I can even sell one copy. Right? Because I’m printing it myself. The people just look at the outside because that’s so much of what we present. And then it does create this entitlement. And if we this is a whole nother conversation. But for so many men if we look at the statistics of dating apps, you will have 10 to 15% of the men on Tinder are getting swiped by 80% of the women. So you have 80% of the men for 20% of the women. And so these guys are literally looking at Beautiful Women over and over and over and over and over all day long, but they just can’t get a hold of one. They just can’t talk to one. They just can’t. Why? Why is it there? Right there? I see them. I hear this frustration in men too. And I go, Oh, I get it. You’re being presented something that doesn’t isn’t possible for you. Of course that’s it can create frustration, resentment, anger and rage. Right. And where’s that going to get pointed? That’s going to get pointed at those women? Because they don’t know the statistics. They’re not like, Oh, this is a rigged game. Oh, I didn’t know that. They’re just going Why not me? Why not? Me? Why not me? Wait a minute. Gary Vee is a billionaire. How come I’m not a billionaire. I post as often as Gary Vee does on social media. Oh, well, Dan bilzerian is surrounded by check models all day long. How come? I’m not surrounded by check models all day long? Shit, what’s wrong with me? Why not? Me? Right. And so yeah, I think there’s a ton of entitlement in it right? Or like, for it’s just for for so much for so so much. Like people don’t realize the the sacrifice it takes to build something. But what else are you going to do with your time here? What else are you going to do with your life? Right? I have a five year plan for this business five years of my life of my 40s I know what I’m gonna do in this business. This is my hyper focus. I know what I’m sacrificing, will it pan out? No idea

Clint Murphy  1:16:24

that right? There was a key word though. Use the word sacrifice. You know, we’re both in our 40s we both have five year plans for ourselves. And in those plans, I’m pretty sure is a lot of sacrifice. Are people willing to do what it takes to get what they want? As we come to the end of the time? Is there anything that’s on your list that we didn’t cover that you want to throw out there to the world?


I think for men, here’s something that I say to all of them. You’re either leading or being led? Both are fine. Both are great. Just make sure you know which ones happening consciously, right? I can break the entire movement down to two ideas that one are you leading are being led in every area of your life, you can break down if you’re having trouble in an area, I guarantee you you’re not leading in that area. And then number two, what are your wounds? And what are you doing to heal them because as men, this is just not this thing we should we sit around the football game and shoot the shit about yet our trauma, our pain, if we don’t alchemize it and release it, we punch it into the world. We shoot it into the world, we fuck it into the world. And that has to stop. And we can tell men stop doing that all day long. But they can’t they physically can’t stop if they don’t deal with the root, which is that wounding in that trauma. So guys listening to this, those are two if you take nothing away from from this whole conversation with that last part. Realize, are you leading are being led? What are your wounds and what are you doing to heal them

Clint Murphy  1:18:01

and men out there, there’s plenty of paths you can take to do that. Whether it’s therapy, whether it’s meditation, whether it’s psychoanalysis, joining Trevor’s men’s movement, the men’s movement, I’m part of offers online groups as well in person groups in certain areas, so does Traver’s So there’s lots of opportunity for you to do the work. And I think we would both say it’s imperative that you do the work to live the life that you want to live Traver, where can people find you?

Traver Boehm  1:18:33

I am I spend most of my time even though I’m hoping to spend less time there on Instagram. And that’s at Traver. boehme tra VRBO e h m or please check out my website man uncivilized calm. You have links to the men’s group, which is the uncivilized nation. Links to my book, links to courses. Those are the two main places that I hang out. I have a podcast as well, the uncivilised podcast. It’s more CO Ed than it is male based. But really feel free to reach out if you guys hear this and you have a question. Hit me up on Instagram. I spend a lot of time there talking to men and talking with men, and it’s truly a pleasure.

Clint Murphy  1:19:11

And for those of you who have not read man uncivilised. I sent Traver a message after I read it I started it on a Friday night I was done it on a Saturday. And I’ve never wrote the word Fuck yes. Two words so many times on so many pages. Traver, you can see my you can see my tabs there from after a while I probably should have just under a tab to page that I didn’t want to go to it was it was beautiful, very well written short, tight, punchy. I think people will learn a lot and they’ll enjoy the reading process of thank you for being here today. And I hope a lot of men grow from what We talked about today.


Thank you sir, I appreciate you having me on.

Clint Murphy  1:20:04

Thank you for joining us on the pursuit of learning, make sure to hit the subscribe button and head over to our website, the pursuit of learning.com where you will find our show notes, transcripts and more. If you like what you see, sign up for our mailing list. Until next time, your host in learning Clint Murphy

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